tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post3250587268055335813..comments2023-10-10T05:38:32.063-07:00Comments on Draw, Run, Write.: Unqualified Comics Debateohminous_thttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10362629902969757305noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-66665113582530938172010-05-08T02:40:33.312-07:002010-05-08T02:40:33.312-07:00If ignorance is bliss, this blog post must be heav...If ignorance is bliss, this blog post must be heaven.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-85253058130998079132010-05-06T19:15:27.458-07:002010-05-06T19:15:27.458-07:00In the 10 artists you named for example, only Hide...In the 10 artists you named for example, only Hideshi Hino really struck me as standing out. (subjective I know), but all the others when I performed a google image search produced the tell-tale construction of Japanese comic book characters, with minor deviations (some artists draw in the bridge of the nose, others don't). whatshisface dude that drew akira for example draws smaller eyes than the average japanese artist, but the construction still looks the same.<br /><br />Construction is the most common thread, to all 10 artists with the exception of Hino, then you have 'schools' namely Mecha and Horror, that have their own subset of telltale cues.<br /><br />Not to say western comics are free from schools, you could easily lump Humberto Ramos, Art Adams, Skottie Young, Cheeks, Francesco Herrera into a school and call them 'cartoon' and then the Silver Age marvel artists into a school and call them 'classic' or whatever.<br /><br />If you are confused as to what I mean by construction google 'Preston Blair Animation 1' it's the underlying geometry of character design, crucial in animation and toy modelling.<br /><br />Now I guess what my fundamental thesis is, that if you somehow drew up a big grid, and took artistic styles/writing styles whatever, seperating Japanese comics from western comics and then plotted them, you would see stuff scattered all over the place.<br /><br />I would be surprised if you didn't see in both spheres the points (each representing an artist) clumped together in clusters. These clusters would probably reflect 'schools' and 'genres'. <br /><br />What I expect, is that the western data sets will A) have more clusters. B) have clusters distributed more widely and C) the clusters are looser (less concentrated around a central point).<br /><br />If these were the findings, then it would confirm my hypothesis that more experimentation/variation is occuring in the western sphere. Thus it is more likely to produce an unexpected hit/super-hit/mega-hit, than the Japanese comic sphere.<br /><br />Now, you keep returning to an irrelevant side of the arguement that is whether you think a named artist/writer is good or not. Such as Frank Miller or Ben Templesmith. You like Apples i like Oranges, doesn't matter. <br /><br />Markets are generally 'winner takes all' in the entertainment field. That is, the number one seller will typically have about 50% of market share, number 2 will only have 20% and so on downward. The spoils aren't distributed evenly. <br /><br />So to take the winnings, you only need to produce one winner - the best. Everything else simply dies out. This model is known as 'the theory of evolution' or 'natural selection' thus, western comics can produce 99% pure shit, so long as each percentage is sufficiently different from each other, if 1% is sufficiently good or gold it can quickly seize 50% of the market.<br /><br />I don't think it would be arrogant to say that Shonen Jump's next 'market leading winner' will in all likelihood be something in the vain of Naruto and One Piece, just as they were in the vain of Dragonball. That is the Japanese incremental approach made famous by Toyota, Sony etc.<br /><br />This 'success formula' will hold true in Western markets at least until some game changer (like the ipod + itunes in the portable music player market) knocks it off.<br /><br />I don't know when it will happen or how much experimentation is necessary. I'm just betting it will happen in the western sphere than in the Japanese sphere. Then I'm betting that if history is anything to go by, Japanese comics will fail to adapt and lose market share worldwide. Though probably not domestically, infact a drop off in worldwide market share is probably the first time a company like Shonen Jump will actually consider the western audience and their tastes and preferences, after getting used to living off their income streams.ohminous_thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10362629902969757305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-68823338028892957572010-05-06T18:53:44.080-07:002010-05-06T18:53:44.080-07:00Okay I'm interested again, I must admit you ha...Okay I'm interested again, I must admit you have me doubting. I don't think the 'variation test' as is works. <br /><br />It took me some time to check out the artists you listed and suffice to say I remain unconvinced. But this is because 'variation' is hard to measure. <br /><br />What I mean to say is that they are not literally the same, or as you keep missing even whether they are any good. <br /><br />I'm trying to devise a way that is objective to test for 'variation'.<br /><br />I will admit that I ask myself the question: 'Would I percieve as much variation in western comic artists if you removed the colour?' <br /><br />The thought experiment I imagine now is this -<br /><br />Obtain a large sample, say 200 pages from both Japanese and western comics. The western comic pages have to be pre-coloured. Naturally scrub out all speech bubbles, and it would probably be necessary to 'flip' the Japanese pages so the reading order is the same (or vice versa).<br /><br />Then mix it up and give some people 400 pages in random order. Then set them the task of seperating Japanese comic pages from western ones.<br /><br />Now, I don't think it would be free of problems, but the way I see it, if there was equal variation in styles then people would have trouble picking the two spheres apart, because their would be no hard and fast rule to base their decisions on. Errors would be relatively high, because both spheres feature artists employing a variety of styles it should be equivalent to flipping a coin.<br /><br />But, I think most people would approach the task by adopting a decision rule. I think that decision rule would be 'does it have the Japanese style?' now crucially I'm saying that the alternative decision rule is 'does it have the Western style?' but that by this people mean in this context 'is it NOT in the Japanese style?'.<br /><br />I look at these sentences and am confused as to how to word it properly, so let me put it this way. In this test you would expect the people performing the test to scan each page then put it in one of two piles. Japanese or western, what I argue they will be looking for are telltale clues that it is a Japanese comic. Ie. they will look at how the artist draws the faces of the characters and deem them 'Japanese' and 'not Japanese' (and therefore western). That's what I would I do, that's what I expect most people would do.<br /><br />Now, the counter argument I can predict is that there is a good decision rule working in the revers 'look for a costume' western comics are dominated by superhero comics, so even if the pages are randomly selected 9 out of 10 will be from superhero titles still.<br /><br />This would be more of a sticking point if it was purely based on comic book covers. But I think this rule would be less effective because even in superhero comics (Spiderman for example) the characters will appear out of costume a significant portion of the time. Then you have comics like daredevil where they are decostuming characters like Bullseye in an appear to realism.<br /><br />So maybe this test is intrinsically flawed. Maybe it could be improved by removing 'iconic' titles like Dragonball, Naruto, Batman, Superman from the sample that every kid on earth is going to recognise.<br /><br />But if you were writing a thesis on memes as they apply to comic culture, it may be worth conducting the test anyway. Firstly to see if the errors were random (variation in style is equal between both spheres, hence no decision rule is possible/useful) and secondly to ask people what methodology they used (and which ones proved most effective). <br /><br />Of course someone such as yourself who seems to read prolifically may adopt a methodology of simply looking for the artists styles you recognise, 400 random pages may not be a large enough sample to be significant for you. So the test to be valid would have to be conducted by 'average readers' like myself (except I'm biased going in, so not literally myself).ohminous_thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10362629902969757305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-42866643711302972302010-05-05T17:28:14.505-07:002010-05-05T17:28:14.505-07:00I'm sorry I have to admit defeat, there's ...I'm sorry I have to admit defeat, there's no way to move this from the realms of the subjective. I'd reject that your list represents as greater deviation than mine. You see very little difference between Sale and Chris Ware, Spiegalman and Crumb. If you believe that I can't argue my case.<br /><br />It would be easy if we were dealing with nice friendly numbers, like rating each comic on a scale of 1-10 cartton vs realism. If we had a mean of 5, then you just look at the standard deviation and bang, argument settled.<br /><br />But alas, how this seems to be working out is that I would rate Tezuka a 3 and Inoue 7 and you would go for Tezuka 1 and Inoue 10 (for example). <br /><br />I guess we could conduct a massive survey, but I don't have that kind of clout and it still wouldn't satisfy individuals such as ourselves.<br /><br />I'm not interested in a fanboy-forum style debate of who 'rulz' and who 'sux' I'll just stand by my prediction. I also have a feeling you aren't familiar with Japanese institutional culture. If you are interested pick up 'Dogs and Demons', 'Straightjacket Society', 'Lost Japan', 'Shutting out the Sun' and you'll get a feel. Or just live in Japan for 6 months or so. You may see what I'm talking about.ohminous_thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10362629902969757305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-83393143647429239662010-05-05T11:57:07.655-07:002010-05-05T11:57:07.655-07:00As far as the fandom affecting your likelihood to ...As far as the fandom affecting your likelihood to like artists, that's stupid. That's like me hating on American comic book fans so thus I must hate a bag of chips and a sofa. <br /><br />A bunch of fat guys dressed up as Superman doesn't make me hate Neal Adams nor will a bunch of lonely people painted in red, sweating and wearing goodwill trench coats at a comic convention will make me hate Mignola's work. <br /><br />Similarly, I hate a good portion of the fandom of Naruto but it doesn't take away from the merits of the comic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-83926174610651780402010-05-05T11:56:06.230-07:002010-05-05T11:56:06.230-07:00"You can outright deny, that Japanese comics ..."You can outright deny, that Japanese comics aren't prescriptive in style, but few would agree with you especially not all the 'How to Draw Manga' books and the people that buy them in vast numbers."<br /><br />but really? Then in the same way you can outright deny that American comics aren't prescriptive in style. Spiegelman is only R.Crumb with less ink marks. Mignola is only Kirby with more black ink. Oda is only Toriyama with rounder contours. Skottie Young is only Bachalo... etc, etc as the post above me has stated.<br /><br />If your best knowledge of manga is "How to Draw Manga" then I can tell you that you drank a whole bottle of ignorade to further replenish your ignorant tendencies. Those guide books are for the gullible who wish to imitate manga, mostly written and executed by people who aren't even up to any standards.<br /><br />If I were to imitate your example then I would pick up a copy of How to Draw Comics and then decide, "Oh, all American comics are the same... look at these 3 different books that teach me different things about doing the same boring thing".<br /><br />Do I? No... I love my Adam Hughes, Otomo, Art Adams, Frank Cho, Eric Powell, Toriyama, Amano, Mignola, Oda, Kishimoto and various others. <br /><br />Please, don't be so ignorant and loud... It hurts the ears.makeshiftrevelationshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12637130592907430547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-77282617986227739292010-05-05T11:46:56.725-07:002010-05-05T11:46:56.725-07:00You preach and preach... but listen to yourself, I...You preach and preach... but listen to yourself, I already did name different artists of Japan that you've disliked and their styles are all different.<br /><br />I love Kirby and Mignola, so yes, that's a good example, look back at it again. They are different and similiar the same way Akira Toriyama's and Eiichiro Oda's styles are. So that makes 2. Cartoony, fun and yet solid in volumetric depictions.<br /><br />Takehiko Inoue, Osamu Tezuka... these are 2 vastly different artists. You want to dismiss them because there are flaks inbetween the two? Then you should definitely dismiss American comic artists inbetween Sale and Ware. That makes 4.<br /><br />We have Kentaro Miura, whose later art has been applauded by art critics in France and Germany, comparing it to Gustave Dore's intensity and mastery of cross hatching. Yet he's another comic artist in Japan who doesn't pretend to be anything else but a damned good storyteller. That makes 5.<br /><br />For Crumb, we have Hideshi Hino, who both have different end goals but are equal oddballs in that they employ cartoonish styles with a heavy styling to achieve a distinctive mood. That makes 6.<br /><br />Hell, even for Miller, I'll name somebody he likes himself, Yoshitaka Amano, fine art painter and comic artist too with distinctive black and white brush-heavy style. That makes 7.<br /><br />You dearly wish to dismiss Katsuhiro Otomo but he influenced the entire comic industry. Not just Japan, if you have any doubts as to whether this man had a style completely original from either Japan or America talk to professional artists of America during comic conventions. That makes 8.<br /><br />Citing Brian Templesmith as a unique, much less competent comic artist is pure folly... but I'll humor you. Tsutomu Nihei of Blame and Bio Omega, scratchy, very rough style with mark-making to represent the environments. That makes 9.<br /><br />Skottie Young I won't even count as breaking the boundaries, all without taking credit away from his merits. Chris Bachalo, Kaare Andrews... those are two artists we can say have done similar stuff and is a generally accepted style by the mainstream. Even so, I'll humor you. Takeshi Obata of Death Note even differentiate himself from his earlier works, look at Bakuman's interior art. It's cartoony and much, much looser than Death Note's technical precision. In Takeshi Obata alone, we get something that Neal Adams pride himself on and something a more cartoony penciler would had done. That makes 10... but for the sake of sealing the deal, here's a few more.<br /><br />Hiroshi Hirata who himself is a huge influence on Neal Adams and a whole generation of mainstream superhero comic artists then. <br /><br />Masashi Ueda's Kobo Chan, simple 4 paneled presentation and celebration of simple, everyday life. Different style... so there you go.<br /><br />A little humility for one as you would do the world much good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-27775136150082015792010-05-04T03:55:29.252-07:002010-05-04T03:55:29.252-07:00Why can't you hear me? This is what keeps me f...Why can't you hear me? This is what keeps me fascinated in this debate.<br /><br />You think Miller is shite. Fine. It doesn't refute my point. <br /><br />It doesn't matter whether Miller is good or not. It doesn't matter who you think is good or shite or what I think is good or shite.<br /><br />So for brevities sake:<br /><br />it comes down to this.<br /><br />1. Generally the strength of Japanese qualities is its relative consistency compared to western comics.<br />2. Inversely, the general strength of Western comics, are the relative inconsistency compared to Japanese comics.<br /><br />Now I'm simply making a market forecast if you will. I'm saying that variation is more likely to produce an unexpected hit than consistency is. <br /><br />Then that that unexpected hit could change the market environment.<br /><br />The changes to the market environment could be to the detriment of those that fail to adapt.<br /><br />That the Japanese comic industry being more consistent than the western comics industry is more likely to fail to adapt.<br /><br />That's it. So even if a particular industry produces mostly shit, or even 100% shit, it only has to produce a phenomena once. In an environment of relatively higher experimentation it's more phenomena friendly.<br /><br />The reasons for this are:<br />1. There is much less emphasis on the 'right' way to draw in western comics, imitation of successful artists is often detrimental to ones career.<br />2. Western comics have long running titles and established companies that own the rights to them. This produces a lot of shitty comics, but it also mixes and matches writers and artists in a variety of combinations.<br /><br />You can outright deny, that Japanese comics aren't prescriptive in style, but few would agree with you especially not all the 'How to Draw Manga' books and the people that buy them in vast numbers.<br /><br />Lastly, I do have a grudge against, not so much Japanese comics themselves but the dogmatic fanboy fan base. Because these people have an idea in their head of 'what art should be' it goes against my grain. <br /><br />I personally find western comics superior because if I drew like Mike Mignola or Tim Sale, Skottie Young, Frank Miller, Crumb, Spiegalman, Ware, Kirby, Cappullo or Templesmith. I wouldn't be rejected flatly for breaking the 'rules' of how comics are drawn. <br /><br />So I mentioned 10 artists names that work professionally in western comics, either independant or mainstream. If you can produce as much variety in 10 Japanese artists visual styles I'll check them out and eat humble pie.ohminous_thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10362629902969757305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-73546456132626185382010-05-04T00:24:15.567-07:002010-05-04T00:24:15.567-07:00You want to talk about formula but comparing Astro...You want to talk about formula but comparing Astro Boy with Dragon Ball is pure folly. Astro Boy dealt with the theme of wars, the value of robotic life and a human life. The subtleties of Astro Boy were picked up by Urasawa and translated more forcefully. Perhaps you should read more of Urasawa's before commenting on either Tezuka, Urasawa or Toriyama. The two don't share much... <br /><br />Also to dismiss Tezuka's own achievements alone is also a great flaw in this whole discussion. Ode to Kirihito, MW and Phoenix alone are enough to dispel all your doubts regarding whether the Japanese has any resistance to progress or change. Still, we're only talking of one artist/author. Tezuka's will evolved into Ghost in The Shell, Akira, Planetes and numerous other quantum leaps in interpretations and methods of discussing the concerns, questions and motives. So there's your counter-argument to them not having a culture that promotes progress in storytelling.<br /><br />Comparisons of Dragon Ball to Naruto to One Piece is valid. I greatly enjoy One Piece and I think it is of no flaw for One Piece to have traits of its predecessor that can be recognized... Just as I'd argue that there is no flaw in a good X-Men run after a great one... or Batman. Yet, each of these stories end. They don't continuously get treated like a tv series that will never end. <br /><br />If you want to argue they don't change... We, over here in America don't change either. How has Ultimate XMen changed since the Xmen? Same characters, same focus on teeny-bopper problems, same continuous self-complaints of "ugh I can't fit in because my pimple can shift the world's polarity" or the occasional, "I am gay, what should I do?". <br /><br />If you want to talk on that level, then yes, kind-hearted boy A with inner talent sets out to fight the world's unfairness and injustice. Is this not the same as America's heroes? <br /><br /><br />Pacing, narrative and such other assorted subtleties, Miller doesn't have them... I'd take you seriously if you were talking of better American or Western storytellers. Moore did score you points... but Moore alone doesn't represent the solid majority of American or Western comics. He, in fact represents the minority. Tim Sale does little than to draw comic pages that look like outdated fashion sketches and halfway-informed technical capabilities... having a style that is more of a crutch than a real style. Mignola is indeed another rare gem, stories are told like international myths... but again, like I'm saying, I think this was never a discussion.<br /><br />I think being close-minded as you are, even if you came across a sincerely, wonderful work of comic and it happened to have come from Japan, you'll instantly dismiss it. This whole article is a round-about rephrasing of "How I don't Want to Like Comics: Based on Which Country They Come From".<br /><br />I hope others will see this for what it is and don't take it as an attempt at intelligent conversation but another rant on the internet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-11241395726495772432010-05-04T00:24:05.263-07:002010-05-04T00:24:05.263-07:00Talks of humility after posting such a badly-obser...Talks of humility after posting such a badly-observed opinion is a shameful act.<br /><br />"But what he does as an artist and has contributed to innovation in terms of pacing, page layout and visual storytelling/problem solving is more significant than anything offered by any Japanese artist since Tezuka."<br /><br />This alone is proof you set out from the beginning to do what ticked you off: being unqualified as you haven't read or understood what you are criticizing. <br /><br />We don't even have to turn to the Japanese to show you how weak your argument is... Championing Miller as an original, mold-breaker not subject to imitating should already shame you. Batman Year One was wonderful because of Mazuchelli's adaptation of Miller's juvenile writing. You want to know which popular American mainstream superhero title actually did challenge conventions then? Barry-Windsor Smith's Weapon X. Characterization, pacing, plot, narrative style down to associating visual style with mood in a conscious way. <br /><br />Then, all that wonderful work to be unravelled, beaten, raped and mutilated for the next few decades by inconsistent character handling, dictated by sales.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-3291473161940337192010-05-03T18:34:51.823-07:002010-05-03T18:34:51.823-07:00Western comics are imitation averse, and the insti...Western comics are imitation averse, and the institutions 'winning formula' often simply involves 'more' hence big crossovers like the 'Crisis' events designed to boost sales in the short term.<br /><br />But periodically people break through and break through big. Then there's things like the Vertigo imprint for DC and I think MAXX for Marvel. <br /><br />The comics, writers and artists that are celebrated in the west are usually the big departures from the Status Quo. DC invite the people that have independant breakthroughs to come work on their flagships. Sure it plays hell on the continuity, but having these long messy ongoing titles allows for deconstruction and other opportunities. Not saying it's better, but you don't want to throw it away.<br /><br />Japanese comics though celebrate the 'great imitations' the iterative improvements on last decades winner. Those who faithfully hold a candal to their predessessor. <br /><br />The result as you rightly point out, is that there's far less risk involved investing your money in a Japanese comic than a western comic. On a scale of one to ten, Japanese comics are usually 5, they follow a consistent formula. <br /><br />Western comics are usually a 1 or 2 at best. But infrequently you also get a 9. The incedence of 10's are probably the same in both spheres. <br /><br />Obviously the numbers are completely fudged. All I'm trying to get through to you is that Western comics are characterised by a far greater degree of variation and experimentation than Japanese comics.<br /><br />You sighted Fuyumi Soryo and perhaps this illustrates my point. I tried to cover my arse with the 'Coz' Bon Jovi' rules argument, and Soryo illustrates the difficulty of trying to debate it through example. Soryo is somebody whose work I would pull out to illustrate how dull, staid and bad Japanese comic artwork is. <br /><br />I've only checked out Cesare though, and despite some clean lines and nice rendering, the character construction offers little that isn't found in one of the 100s of 'How to draw Manga' books. <br /><br />But one's trash is another's treasure. <br /><br />You don't like Miller, I don't particularly like Miller, his dialogue is terrible and cliche even in his best works from the 80's. But what he does as an artist and has contributed to innovation in terms of pacing, page layout and visual storytelling/problem solving is more significant than anything offered by any Japanese artist since Tezuka.<br /><br />And people like Miller periodically crop up in western comics, somewhere in the world. The Mignola's, the Crumbs, the Speigalman's, the Ware's, the Mobieus(?). <br /><br />I do think objectively, it is easy to say that Japanese comic artwork is far more proscriptive (rule based) than western comics. Aspiring western artists are most commonly rejected because 'we already have an art adams, we already have a frank miller, we already have a tim sale, we already have a todd macfarlane, we already have a ben templesmith.' I know more western artists because they are easy to remember because their art (and names) are more distinctive.<br /><br />So unless you want to move away from subjective 'well I think this is actually better than that' and talk about the structure of industry, I suggest we just wait and see how it turns out.ohminous_thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10362629902969757305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-39592727372582222032010-05-03T18:34:40.687-07:002010-05-03T18:34:40.687-07:00Western comics by contrast don't appear to hav...Western comics by contrast don't appear to have this 'strength' my controversial point of view is that it's actually a weakness (of Japanese comics). That is things that are consistent and predictable tend to be most vulnerable to upsets.<br /><br />In the mid 1990's nobody, in the world would have predicted that Apple of all companies would become the number one player in portable music players, nor the number one distributor of music. Most punters would say 'nothing will ever topple Sony'. Yet that's precisely what happened and nobody (possibly not even Steve Jobs) saw it coming. <br /><br />Sony just sat making incremental improvements each year whilst Mac secretely developed iTunes. It may not have even been secret, I don't know. The point is that Japanese instutions are designed to focus on precedent, not experiment.<br /><br />So let's move to Frank Miller, I'm not making a direct comparison between Miller and Tezuka, because it's pretty obvious that Miller's impact and innovations are dwarfed by Tezuka's.<br /><br />But Miller is still a perfectly valid example. I'm not the biggest fan of Miller, and like Moore his best work appears to be behind him.<br /><br />But look at Batman Year One. Previously thanks to American censorship throughout the 50's and 60's Batman had been little more than a square jawed father figure, that was also a detective that inexplicably wore a bat costume and had lots of gimmecky James Bond type equipment.<br /><br />Miller had already retconned Dare Devil into a gritty, dark, noir-esque interpretation that brought him to fame. (This same dark gritty Miller Daredevil is irreverently parrodied by Moore as crap.) <br /><br />Miller basically took from Daredevil and gave to Batman, and Year One is the birthplace of modern Batman. Moore, Loeb & Sale and Bruce Timm built on and refined this interpretation.<br /><br />I'm sure you know all this, I do have a point though. Last decade DC in an effort to boost sales teamed Miller up with Jim Lee for Allstar Batman & Robin. <br /><br />It would seem simple, Miller just has to reproduce his winning formula of re-interpreting Batman in the 80's. Jim Lee does his beautiful artwork, guarunteed hit.<br /><br />But Miller doesn't even imitate himself. Instead he goes 'wildly' experimental and re-re-interprets Batman as a psychotic, and re-interprets the Robin origin as a kidnaping and indoctrination. <br /><br />It was a critical and commercial disastor. However, it is this characteristic of experimentation, often resulting in failure, that is precisely Western Comics success.<br /><br />Moore has written 'Writing for Comics' which gives a user friendly process for coming up with great ideas. Yet, there are almost no Moore imitators. Not even Neil Gaiman frequent recipient of Moore's sloppy seconds copies his style.ohminous_thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10362629902969757305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-66536952299759122352010-05-03T17:48:06.622-07:002010-05-03T17:48:06.622-07:00sorry, I thought I clarified.
I find your respon...sorry, I thought I clarified. <br /><br />I find your responses interesting, but ultimately unconvincing. Firstly I don't feel you are demonstrating an appropriate level of epistemic humility. Which is presenting your personal opinions as if they are the consensus, which may be the case with comics, but not as regards the sucess of ipod versus the walkman, or McDonalds, or Image.<br /><br />So let me reiterate - Japanese industries are built around a model of 'incremental improvement' I contend that the comic industry is no different.<br /><br />Western industry, particularly America is built around experimentation and quantum improvements (sudden breakthroughs). I contend that the western comic industry is no different.<br /><br />Thus IN THE LONG RUN, it is in strict probability terms, far more likely that the big game changing innovation in comics comes from the West, regardless of what Japanese comic book sales say now.<br /><br />Less relevant but compounding the problem is that Japanese industries and audiences are insular. Maybe not in all cases, but this is certainly the status quo. Their is a vast body of research on the matter, and numerous documented precedents.<br /><br />Japanese industries have a history of not seeing the big changes coming. Their success stories are usually characterised by very 'un-Japanese' management styles - Nintendo, Honda, Toyota.<br /><br />Tezuka isn't really fair game in the debate, because he's pretty 'un-japanese' in his approach himself. As you say he looked to western movies like Metropolis for plot ideas and Animators like Walt Disney to borrow his style from.<br /><br />The next generations of Japanese comic artists though, looked to Tezuka.<br /><br />Tezuka is sort of an accident of history, his genius is unparrallelled in the field of comics world wide. Stan Lee doesn't compare favorably to Tezuka, in terms of influence. The only comparisons really are Isaac Newton for inventiveness.<br /><br />Now, I don't know if you've ever tried writing/drawing your own comic, but most of the process (of drawing at least) is problem solving. You can get around problem solving by finding a precedent, Tezuka provides many precedents and has done a lot of problem solving for a lot of Japanese comic artists.<br /><br />This view of Tezuka's role I don't believe is controversial, he is called the 'Godfather of Japanese Comics'. <br /><br />Now if you take his number one seller (I think) Astro Boy - you can see what I mean with the 'incremental improvement' I don't know what increments their were between Astro Boy and Dragon Ball, I presume their were.<br /><br />But Dragon Ball takes the pure of heart young boy with hidden strength formula of Astro Boy, and simply changes the details. He tweaks it by increments adding lecherous old man humour and pervert humour to the early series until it evolved into the predictable formula of Goku and Gohan pull ever increasing power levels from nowhere to triumph over foes ever increasing in power levels.<br /><br />That formula is in tern improved by increments in Naruto and One Piece, Pure of Heart young boy with hidden strengths pulls ever increasing power levels from nowhere to triumph over foes ever increasing in power levels.<br />The details have changed, the formula is the same. They just tweak it by degrees, Naruto less so than One Piece. Infact the real improvement over Dragon Ball is One Piece because some consistency and foreshadowing has been added to the writing, not so with Naruto. Sales interestingly don't appear to reflect this.<br /><br />These consistent success formula's appear to be Japanese comics success. And regardless of genre, it's pretty fair to say that Tezuka did it. (In many genre's he probably did it better). But being charitable lets say that 80% of the formula is directly attributable to Tezuka's precedent.ohminous_thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10362629902969757305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-41578713977442227552010-05-03T11:11:10.357-07:002010-05-03T11:11:10.357-07:00I think you've conveniently categorized Japane...I think you've conveniently categorized Japanese comics as something that will never grow.<br /><br />Tezuka learnt from films, Otomo is Japan's equivalent to Moebius and just as influential to the world, Toriyama learnt from Chinese and Western cartooning, Inoue learnt from calligraphic paintings as much as classical Western studies.<br /><br />If anything, it's America that has its foot stuck in a mud pit. Image comics thought they borrowed from Japanese comics... but it ended as far as badly aping superficial traits.<br /><br />Presently, America has learnt so little from everybody else while the other 2 big names in comics, French and Japanese are constantly learning from each other... and thriving from the growing competition provided by Korea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-85204772447687206562010-05-03T11:02:07.129-07:002010-05-03T11:02:07.129-07:00I think when you compared Frank Miller to Tezuka, ...I think when you compared Frank Miller to Tezuka, you've lost credibility as far as being intelligent or one who can tell the difference between a story having "mature content" and a mature story. <br /><br />Spider-Man and such others go on for 20 years because there isn't a real consistency in the story. This is a huge difference, example: 90% of Spiderman is shit but not 90% of what Tezuka does is shit. Comparing mainstream American comic to Japanese comic is stupid. America's set-up allows you to have "great episodes" out of a franchise, whereas Japan's allows for great stories out of a catalogue of other titles.<br /><br />This alone is grounds enough to dismiss American comics as entirely inconsistent and uninteresting to read for one who's interested in a story that has an intriguing beginning and a great end. Why? Because it means everything will be alright because it can never end as long as sales say it won't. This is also my argument why Watchmen IS one of the titles you mentioned I also agree is good, America OR Japan: because it's a real story in the first place.<br /><br />Comics are valuable to each individual according to each's beliefs in life. Frank Miller makes very weak, man-child dirty stories that many mistake as mature. Sin City was great fun, even before the film, it's got petty concerns and perky tits. Entertaining but comparing that favorably to Akira is laughable. Even on technical terms alone, Otomo trumps Miller... let's not even get to creativity and writing abilities... It's like comparing CSI Miami to Citizen Kane. <br /><br />It's difficult to win over people by showing that their belief is entirely wrong so I'll tell you this: Japanese comics isn't a fad. America isn't the world. <br /><br />I'm neither American nor Japanese, I grew up with both comics and I can honestly tell you, one I read when I take a shit and the other I read because it's got real life lessons. I enjoy both but it should be clear which one has more prolific artist and writers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-28190681343476576562010-05-02T01:13:48.751-07:002010-05-02T01:13:48.751-07:00Much success is built around Japan's 'incr...Much success is built around Japan's 'incremental' improvement system making small but frequent refinements. The western (specifically American) model has traditionally been more about quantum improvements - unexpected breakthroughs. <br /><br />I apologise if this seems like a definitional retreat, but my central argument which you are free to refute is based on Japan's long standing traditions that have driven industry leader after industry leader into the ground.<br /><br />These three factors in fact #1 Japanese education is shaped by a dogma 'nihonjinron' which says that 'Japanese people are A) homogonous and B) unique from any other culture in the world.' It is principally employed in 'protectionist' schemes, trying to prevent foreign bodies from entering domestic markets. It's implemented at an institutional level, and Japanese individuals themselves are neither homogenous or a unique subspecies of the human race and when a Japanese person does act racist it usually comes from a place of blind ignorance not malice.<br /><br />Compounding this exclusion of foreigners (gaijin) regardless of intent is that #2 Japanese institutions are organised into divisions of 'ie' and 'soto' that is the 'house/tribe' and 'outsiders' even within the broader Japanese society. <br /><br />There is an anecdote in Alex Kerr's excellent book 'Dogs & Demons' of a consultant in the 90's doing a presentation on emails and the Japanese audience walked away perplexed wondering 'why would people want to communicate with somebody outside the company?' <br /><br />Lastly #3 Japan has a cultural emphasis placed on respect for ones elders. One of the ways this manifests is in the all conquering precedent, any departure from precedent or innovation is seen as an implicit insult to your predecessors. Japan produces creative inventive people just like any country in the world but often their vision is stifled by having to pay lip service to the status quo, the precedent. This works against them making the kind of industry quantum breakthroughs that are necessary to survive in the long run.<br /><br />It is this insular parochial culture that is the basis of my contrarian stance. A 'give them enough rope, and Japanese comics will hang themselves.' if you will.<br /><br />I mean, perhaps let me pull an example from your first paragraph:<br /><br />"And IMAGE artists totally 'borrow' from the anime/manga look." I'm not sure that's objectively the case, but being charitable for arguements sake let's say that it is. <br /><br />Image artists 'borrowing' the Japanese comic look is in essence exactly why I'm betting on western comics in the long term. <br /><br />They are free too, just like Tezuka 'borrowed' the original anime/manga look from Walt Disney. Furthermore every Japanese comic artists 'totally "borrow" their look from some other Japanese comic book artist. They all imitate eachother (with exceptions of course like Takehiko Inoue) and to suggest that Japanese citizenship is the pre-requisite to imitate such a prescreptive style is the same as saying White people shouldn't be allowed to play Jazz music.<br /><br />My explanation is as to why western comics will win out long term, as unlikely as that seems to most people is that, most likely independant comic artists will borrow all the strengths of the Japanese model, do away with all the weaknesses, inject influences from everywhere and produce something so great it takes the world by storm.<br /><br />If I knew what that breakthrough comic looked like, I'd draw it myself and get it out there. Maybe I do, and maybe I am, but I doubt it. What I don't doubt is that the number of opportunities for that breakthrough to occur in the west dwarf the opportunities in the Japanese comic industry. <br /><br />Who knows the revolution may originate in Japan, but I, personally would not bet on it.ohminous_thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10362629902969757305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-56124260187709842192010-05-02T01:13:40.194-07:002010-05-02T01:13:40.194-07:00hey anonymous, thanks for the effort. It seems I o...hey anonymous, thanks for the effort. It seems I owe you an apology on several fronts.<br /><br />The 'unqualified comics debate' is not in reference to my post being a debate in itself, its more of a rant. The unqualified comics debate referred to the futility of arguing with someone whose opinion is unqualified - I hope you would agree that arguing over who's mums speghetti bolognese is best is a largely fruitless exercise.<br /><br />Then, in terms of reasoned arguement, I probably owe you an apology for using examples as all. The old saying 'One mans trash is another's treasure' I tried to mitigate this somewhat by pointing to Sturgeons Law (90% of everything is shit) and also just generally what is 'good' in comics is highly subjective. I'd personally hold up Mark Miller and Grant Morrisson as fine examples of everything wrong with western comics at the moment, but I doubt this would be the generally accepted view.<br /><br />The real thesis of my opinion piece is that Japanese comics are on top now, but I don't think they will stand the test of time. <br /><br />So rather than trudging out examples to try and sway a case back and forward, I'll try to be systemic. My humble offering for a failure in communication.<br /><br />Firstly, lets reject argumentum ad numeram (numerum?) as a logical fallacy and for shear practical reasons. That is if revenue/unit sales/popularity is submissable as evidence Japanese comics wins hands down and there simply is no debate. The premise of the 'debate' is that popularity or profitability does not constitute superior intrinsic quality. Would you rather be given a Toyota Camry the world's most popular car model or an vintage mint-condition Aston Martin?<br /><br />Furthermore I would even submit that there may be no actual examples of truly intrinsically superior western comics, you could throw out sturgeon's law and accept that western comics are 100% shite it would not defeat my argument/position.<br /><br />To clarify, my position is contrarian - that is its the opposite of the market reality, I know this no need to point it out. I don't expect it to carry much weight or leave DC and Marvel execs breathing an actual sigh of relief.<br /><br />My position is: Western Institutions are more evolutionary/quantum improvement friendly than Japanese institutions. The comics industry is no different.ohminous_thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10362629902969757305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-78870238717580263482010-05-01T15:17:34.600-07:002010-05-01T15:17:34.600-07:00"Within ten years Japanese children will be s..."Within ten years Japanese children will be shocked to learn that 'Weekly Zip' the dominant comic book compendium isn't even Japanese, just as they are currently shocked to learn that 'McDonalds' was founded in Atlanta, USA."<br /><br />Um, McDonalds doesn't make money because it's considered a superior form of fast food. It makes money because it's cheap. Again, you're basically arguing for quantity over quality.<br /><br />"If you come across it in an actual manga, lets just say it is often handled indelicately, they are not real explorations of complex and mature issues but merely inserted as shock value. A desperate cry for attention, hence the alarming rate with which female characters shake off rape for the next episode."<br /><br />Yeah, because Wonder Woman shaking off being tied up is totally deep.<br /><br />"They aren't included to set up a storyline where the human condition is explored through the psychological aftermath of such decisions. This is more common in western comics where you are far more likely to see Matt Murdoch AKA Daredevil descend into a depressive funk for several issues grieving than you would if it was written for the Japanese market."<br /><br />Someone hasn't read Barefoot Gen.<br />And they have to force Murdoch to be depressed, because no one is buying the series most of the time, and it's an excuse to try to turn it into a collector's issue. At least in manga, if a story takes a shocking turn, then <br />there's a sense of planning and build-up to it. It's not just a<br />bi-polar thing like in American comics. <br /><br />"a large proportion of Japanese males simply don't mature and thus, keep reading comics. There is perhaps too much social stigma against grown men (and women) reading comics in the west, there is perhaps not enough social stigma in Japan."<br /><br />Except that stigma in the West is partly what's killing sales. <br /><br />"There is more stylistic difference between artists like Frank Miller, Greg Cappullo, Jack Kirby, Humberto Ramos, Tim Sale, Will Eisner, Chris Ware and Ben Templesmith than there is between Osamu Tezuka, Akira Toriyama, Eichiro Oda, Watsuki Nobuhiro, Masashi Kishimoto, Oh Great! and Urasawa Naoki."<br /><br />Yeah, Miller really showed those manga-ka how it's done with Robocop 2 and The Spirit....<br /><br />"Western Comics are generally better at mixing and matching great writers with great artists"<br /><br />Because Rob Liefeld is totally a class act. <br /><br />"Variety is the spice of life, and even in the dominant superhero genre (which is by no means all western comics have to offer) there is more variety in artwork and narrative than the entire brief history of Japanese comics."<br /><br />Yeah, there's so much variety that it's wasted on multiple comic covers.<br /><br />"Furthermore the only objective measure is sales, and Japanese comics are clearly outselling western ones, and that when they are overpriced too."<br /><br />Sorry, but I can get more content for my money from a manga than an American comic compilation which is only put out in HC to justify an unnecessary price-jack. [*cough* The Killing Joke *cough*]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20599948.post-47094556868961434772010-05-01T15:17:25.648-07:002010-05-01T15:17:25.648-07:00Guess I'll have to split this up.
Um, Spider-...Guess I'll have to split this up.<br /><br />Um, Spider-Man has lasted as long as it has because of tie-ins, since the audience for the actual comic just isn't there anymore. Otherwise, Marvel wouldn't have sold out to Disney. And IMAGE artists totally "borrow" from the anime/manga look. Also, that argument about younger audiences not reading Watchmen and Sin City is misleading, since sales of the graphic novels went up after the movies came out. <br /><br />"So rare in fact I can think of only two in Japanese comics - Takehiko Inoue and Osamu Tezuka."<br /><br />Guess you never heard of Fuyumi Soryo.<br /><br />"But it doesn't matter in western comics, because a truly great writer like Moore, can work with any great artist and the product can be truly greater than the sum. "<br /><br />Even a pedo take on Alice and Wonderland?<br /><br />"In the long run I expect they will notice that once you've read one manga of each major genre (sports, school, fantasy epic, romance, comedy, horror) you have read them all."<br /><br />Yes, because Kick-Ass totally stands apart from the pack in American comics.<br /><br />"They will notice that western comics evolve, adapt, change and grow."<br /><br />If that were the case, they wouldn't be going through a decline in sales. Even Crumb ended up crossing over to the Bible-thumpers for the extra dough. <br /><br />"They will notice that there is a huge difference between the statements 'Then Frank Miller came along in the 80's and changed everything...' and 'Then Akira Toriyama came along in the 80's and changed everything...' (I would argue that Akira Toriyama creator of Dragon Ball franchise changed almost nothing at all.)"<br /><br />Yeah, because before Miller, comics used to be for man-children who liked stories of fascist violence from superheroes. After Miller, they were embraced by man-children who liked real-world gratuitous fascist violence. And if you think Toriyama didn't do shit for the medium, he was the first manga-ka to break out huge overseas. No American comic has ever had the kind of international success of DB. So much so that a POS like Evolution got more fan scrutiny than any crappy American comic adaptation. [Roger Corman FF4, anyone?] <br /><br />"I argue that Japanese comics will fall off the map in the same way that Sony has in consumer electronics."<br /><br />Playstation still makes money, dude. [And MS, which could buy and sell Sony ten times over, can't even produce a working console which has the same wide appeal as its Japanese competition.] Sure, the iPod made the company's music players out-dated, but that has more to do with a crappy American music industry which only cares about cashing in on gimmicks, rather than cultivating new talent. And the movie industry's gonna be next at the current rate. So you're basically arguing that the only way for American companies to catch up is to dumb down their content to the point that they have to practically give it away.<br /><br />"The reverse is totally or mostly untrue. Western comics have had almost no impact on Japanese comics."<br /><br />That is so not true. Western comics may not be the institution in Japan that they are in America, but they do have a following in the former country.<br /><br />"Many super talented artists (Oh Great comes to mind) waste their talents drawing for the garbage THEY WRITE THEMSELVES."<br /><br />Yes, because it's totally different when Neil Gaiman attaches his name to an installment of Cherry Pop Tart.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com